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 Oz's concept overhaul

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Oz
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PostSubject: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:33 am

Well hi. I'm the same Oz from HC.
What I suggest might be a little drastic as I imagined the whole thing in a completely different way but hear me out and decide if it's useful or not.

First of all, I heard you want to give the lizards an aztec or a persian theme. I suggest a roman theme, it's something that's missing from the game and would be great if implented. Besides the Aztec theme was mastered with Fortress, people can barely improve it and we need something new.
Now I don't know the basic story idea but I believe it's about Lizards rebelling against Fortress. Rebels like this are either live in poor tents and quickly made wood structures, and caves, or finds ruins. For lizards to inhabit a ruined roman city would be awesome(I'd also rename Hill Keep, to Ruins, which sounds much cooler, not to mention I want to use Keep for my faction, if that'll be ever happen geek).

So imagine the setting in a ruined ancient roman city, I think it's easier to make graphically and they could easily remain tribal+has a cooler town. If you guys are interested I can draw it, I'm pretty good at it, I made two versions of my town so far and I have to tell both of them are pretty good, original and would fit in H3 well(atleast this is what I and a few of my friends who saw it and are hardcore H3 fans believe).

Now comes the lineup. As I said on HC, the lineup present on there seems to be something that was thrown together rather quickly, and some of the unused creatures are awesome and creative(the roman theme idea also comes from there). Now The lineup has imroved, but Rakshasa just doesn't belong here, and again there are some great unused creature concepts(I'll post some of them from the original HC post, but I'll write what modifications I'd use).
Without further add, here comes my lineup:

Lvl 1.
Lizard Rebel->Lizard Skirmisher

Normal lizards with barely any armor and attack, but with a 2-3 damage range, high speed and they retaliate twice. They wear some leather, and a dagger.
Upgrade have throwing spears and has increased attack, but loses the double retaliation ability, and possibly gains no melee penalty.


Lvl 2.
Lizard Conscript->Lizard Centurio
(second one), no pic for centurio
Now these guys has metal armor, quite good defense but slow, and no specials at all. The pic is near perfect, but we could make to armor look like a little wrecked, and make the swords shorter, just to clarify these things were taken from dead roman soldiers.
Upgrade, has towershield, a long spear, and a more decorative helm. Even more defense, and now a formidable attack. It'd be nice if we could implent the H4 Pikeman's ability to attack from a hex further, but I don't know if that's possible, still slow.

Lvl 3.
Varanus->Salamander
no images for these ones

High attack, high hp, low damage, medium speed, large creature. A green varanus, not much to discuss, any better name is welcomed.
Upgrade has a redish-brownish color, and breath attack.

Lvl 4.
Lizard Hunter->Lizard Hawkeye
no images

No armor, obviously low physical stats except for damage, attack, and speed(possibly fastest creature of the tier). Wears no armor, and a long bow.
Upgrade has better gear, more attack and the famous no range penalty, maybe poison arrows too, but then we'll have to cut out the attack increase.

Lvl 5.
Lizard Acolyte->Lizard Wizard(this is just awesome Very Happy)
no images, again

Pretty much like monk: a ranged magician, just a little lower stats, and can cast dispel on friendly creatures. As for the looks, they should have a ragged brown skirt, and a similiar hood(no clothes on torso), they wield daggers.
Upgrade, is similiar, except with a revealed head and a serpent fly head on it(is it possible?). Small stat increase, mostly in hp. Still casts dispel on friendly targets, and ranged attack casts Slow(!).

Lvl 6.
Lizard Serpent->Lizard Chosen

The idea is that they were blessed by the "wyrm god" or whatever, and mutated into serpents. Obviously we should use different weapons, maybe an axe or a sword with a flamberg like blade(like arch angels, just not that static). Medium health, good attack and damage, and has Regeneration ability, but slighly less than medium speed.
Upgrade has a great speed increase due to the legs, and always positive luck. Also some minor stat increase.

Lvl 7.

Now this is where I can't decide, I didn't have any idea for a long time, but suddenly I have two... First idea came in the morning(thanks to Kipshasz from HC): a Dinosaur like creature. I'd call it Predator->Devourer give devour ability to the upgrade, and no retal to both. Medium speed, high health, medium armor, good damage.
My other idea supports the roman theme: a Chimera. We can easily use the Manticore as a base, we just have to add a dragon and a goat head plus a snake tail. The town also needs atleast a single flyer even if they have 3 shooters so I lean towards this. Obvious specials are three headed attack and no retal, fairly fragile, and attack oriented.

I'd also consedire to remove "lizard" from the names. We don't see units like Human Crusader, or anything like that. The sole prupose I kept it is because Lizard Wizard sounds cool.


About the heroes:
I heard the current ones are Tracker and Witch-doctor. They are good, but I think a simple Scout, and Shaman would be slightly better.
I believe it's pretty obvious and you planned the same, but since I haven't seen info regarding this I should state that every Scout start with Scouting, yes it's mostly an useless skill, but that's the nature of the hero so it has to be scouting, and ofcourse as all magic class Shamans start with wisdom.


That's all for now, I can help with campaign story, and draw creature concept arts too if you wish. I'd also like to join the team if my ideas are accepted.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:57 am

1. If our moderator is still in charge, id like him to give u team member

2. Nice idea, but... i'd like to see creatures like crunchy and wyvern champion as well

3. Ya, I agree, if they wd be roman style, they shd have old, rusty weapons

4. I think that it shd be not like a Roman, not like an Aztec, it shd be like Polish Partizants, so Sewers/Forests + Tents, if any, no campfire to do not show your position, completely black night, whispers, some ppl patrolling the area from time to time and, of course, some town nearby(Of any climate) - IT is rebel like climate.

5. Rebels, if any, Shd have been available to buy in huge masses, shd have ability to no retaliation for attacked, shd be fast and shd have its morale on level +2, thats it. Maybe ability to capture enemy's armor and weapon, but it wd be kinda huge work.

6. If it wd be Rebel like climate, it shd look like capturing, not building sctructures.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 4:20 am

1. Thanks

2. I believe that Wyvern Champions should be neutral, they're good but not that much of a creative idea. Wyverns belongs to the Fortress, if lizards rides them that either means they are still fighting under Fortress, or that they enslaved some of them which is not good to build an army. Wyvern Riders are too blunt to be the main lvl 7 creature, but shuold be stronger then the lvl 6 wyverns. There could be a mission in the early campaign where the lizards will have to do some guerilla tactics, and one of them would be the capture Wyverns. For that map, these riders would be the key to victory.
What is Crunchy like?

4. I think I'll draw the city next week(I have to organise a party for the weekend) to show you guys what exactly is my idea. I imagined it to be foggy, and cold, barely any fires, but not complete silence, as it's an openly known fact that there is a rebellion. The place is sourounded by deep forests and there are many "temporary" structures like tents amongst the ruins and woods. You'll see.

5. You mean my unit, the lizard rebel? If that's so then that'd be overpowered, and unlogical in some cases. The "empire" always strikes back, so no retal isn't that good even if a rebel ambush is unexpected. Positive morale is ok, but nothing special, and I don't want to overpower the lizards, cause if one unit has +morale because he's a rebel, then all lizards should have plus morale because they're all rebels. I'd rather make the campaign hero with a special that always provides positive morale, cause frankly rebels are eager mostly because of the war heroes, and there is no one specific to rebel against in scenario mode.

6. Ofcourse, I admit it'd strange that ruins are built in towns. Maybe it could be like it has all the roman structures prebuilt and when rebel units inhabit them, they'll decorate it and restore them to some extent.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:17 am

2. Cranchy? U Know him?



4. Im waitin with held breath : )

5. Ya I mean Liz. Rebel. Ok, no morale + and no no retaliation, but what then? Nothin? Maybe double attack?

6. And a Lizard Flag on it!

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:28 am

2. Ah I see, that's a pretty cool creature, I remember him now. I could see it as the first large commander. Smile

5. I gave him double retaliation, cause rebels are always fierce to strike back.

6. Yeah I meant flags too.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:28 am

5. Ok, wd do for me...

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:54 am

Basicaly, lizards' rebellion against fortress doesn't make any sense, as lizards run the place.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:15 am

Well then what is the campaign is about? I found it strange too, but that's what I got from Rebellion of the Merciless.
Maybe they could rebel because some lizards, and gnolls tried to enslave the creatures instead of being frendly to them? I don't know, this just sounds like an animal rights activist.
Gnolls have just as much involvement in Fortress and some humans too, so the lizards could rebel against them for some reasons.

So is there a basic story idea at all? Or title was given only cause it sounds cool?
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:30 am

I didn't come up with it. Check my thread in suggestions' section. I came up with at least half decent campaign.
And my best story idea is currently used in my own project, Chronicles of Vaishvilk.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:41 pm

The idea was that Lizards rebel against Fortress, which summons Barrow Town Creatures to help stop the thing, and at the same time other factions are tryin to make use of situation and defeat both fortress and rebeliants. There was Neutralipolis as well - those who lived in peace, interrupted by never ending war in lands where they lived, decided to end it, before it wd end them, as they were neutral and it was equal as everybody was against them, cuz they didnt count.

And here's where the Title came from(Btw. ive done both title and logo)

IMO this story isnt bad idea, it allows u to see campaign from at least 5 points of view.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:24 am

But logically it doesn't make any sense. Why would lizards rebel, if they have the upper hand in Tatalia?

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:11 am

They could rebel, but then there should be another rebellion before it. The first campaign could be about the Gnolls rebelling, and at the last scenario, killing the Tatalian Lizard king.
The problem with this is that it would include either too much Fortress or too much Ruins/Hill Keep/Whatever.
Cause then we'll probably need to make a campaign about the escape of the lizards, to form the Ruins, and we'll also have to make and ending campaign mainly based around them, when they finally win. I don't see much other factions taking interest in this since Fortress is supposed to be a neutral mercenary faction who only fights with the Stronghold. So there can be a campaign about Stronghold too, but other factions would be unlikely to join in.

I'm supporting Raven's idea, it's pretty good, simple, logical, and we all could add something to it. We could even include the thief as a campaign(I always enjoyed small army, one hero campaigns). A dungeon warlock, who is a lizards hears about the maps and decides to take them, and here we have one more campaign added to the mix, which would also explain why does dungeon/asylum have thieves instead of overlords(who could cause just as much chaos) in H4.
If we're talking about an ancient civilization with possible treasures then many factions could be interested, but if we're talking about a mostly neutral faction's inner war, then we could barely include their natural enemy the barbarians, and maybe Castle fanatics?

We wouldn't even need to change the abbreviation, cause we could just call it Rise of the Merciless.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:59 am

My campaingn explained shortly, by each faction's goals
Fortress: make contact with the left over Saurudun and learn more about their past
Stronghold: just to rob the Saurudun cities and be back with insane amount of wealth.
Castle: since Kendal screwed up so badly in Restoration War he decided to bring back gold and artifacts hoping that it would make up for his screw up. However, his liutenant doesn't think his way
Inferno: trying to reconquer the island again, as they failed to do so centuries ago.

An intro campaign explaining how the maps got to their new owners is a good idea, 2-3 scenarios would do.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:51 pm

I'm looking forward to Oz's sketches, any chance of a sneak peek?

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:39 am

I've just returned from my house party. Unfortunately my comp restarts every 3 minutes cause something went wrong with it during the party. I'll start drawing today.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:46 am

Try to take out and take in your graphic card(Take out all computer wires first =P)

Maybe it will work

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:32 am

Clean up the pc. It must be dust free. Use compressed air to clean the coolers.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:38 pm

Maybe your little fun(The thing that is cooling down your comp) is badly/un plugged?

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:16 am

Thanks for the advices, but I doubt that's the problem. I cleaned my pc today but nothing changed. One of my friend's friend is coming today and will try to fix my pc for free(I can't afford a professional now due to the many parties, festivals in the upcoming weeks), but there is a high possibility that I'll need a new hard drive...

But anyway, the town looks great so far. I'm ready with all the buildings, the only thing that's missing is the background. I haven't decided yet on what kind of forest I will use. I used my creature lineup and my special buildings for this town, and I call it "Ruins" as my suggestion says.
It'll be probably ready before the end of the week, but I won't post anything less than the finished town cause I my scanner is too slow, and I'd have to plug it into my father's pc to be able to scan it, and I'm too lazy for that.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:17 am

Oke, nope

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:52 am

Well, I think the problem's in power source. Maybe the vires are screwed up.

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:57 pm

Ok, everything is fine now. It was the hard drive afterall, and I had to get a new one. Furtunately I have my name day(I don't know if you celebrate it in your countries) on the 14th so I had my comp reŇĎaired as a present.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:05 pm

Yes, we do celebrate names' days in Poland

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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:19 pm

Seems like I won't finish it yet. I'll have time for it tommorow but I'm not sure I'll have the mood for it aswell. After that coming another house party, then another one, then a festival.
I'll post the current pic though, if I don't feel like finishing it tomorrow.
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PostSubject: Re: Oz's concept overhaul   Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:18 am

Nope

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